Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

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Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby edepot » 12 Aug 2009, 01:19

[MODERATOR EDIT: This post does not belong in the PS3 section. That's for questions about YDL on the PS3 only. Moved to speaker's corner - a better fit, I think. -Paul]

Ok, I think someone has to come in and expose the problems with the current YDL on PS3. I don't think it is a problem with the number of active users, it is the number of engaged users. With 40 million PS3 that allows installation of linux, I think the main problem has to do with ease of use and usability. Most times when things are complex, someone will come in and provide a simpler solution. But with PS3 linux, I think it is stuck in a bind. Perhaps it is because of the proprietary nature of the hardware that is preventing advancement in ease of use, but I am not sure now because the iPhone has a separate homebrew store setup that makes installing and creating apps for it much easier (and allows developers to profit from it).

Why doesn't the PS3 have something on par with Cydia? All PS3 are same, just like the iPhone. There is a free SDK from IBM to build software. There are more PS3 than iPhones (I think they are very close in numbers at least). Why hasn't someone come in and try to profit from making a simple way for developers to put up applications on it to sell? Does applications must only run from the XMB side to be worth the effort? If yes, maybe that is the reason why there are not much engaged users for PS3 linux. Perhaps only 10 percent of the PS3 owners ever attempt to use the linux partition (which would result in 4 millions users). The population should be increasing because the number of users are growing each day.

I think more work has to be put in to make the linux partition easier for the PS3 user. Maybe make a front end for it so it resembles the XMB or iPhone interface, and let all the background command line be hidden. That way regular users are not horrified at the complexity of installing and uninstalling software on the PS3. I just looked at the post of the person trying to get songbird installed. Can you imagine giving up on an operating system because it has an unfriendly install process? The success rate is terrible. I think his main problem is that he is trying to get support for applications build for Vista, but is using Windows 95 as his base. (Fedora 11=Vista, YDL6.2=Win95). Maybe the problem is that YDL6.2 is not on the bleeding edge of operating systems.

The way to fix this is to get someone to create a ps3BleedingEdge.repo and start upgrading to the latest and greatest stuff that works on the PS3. Don't worry about protecting the YDL base, but worry about what latest version of software works on the PS3. I've read that the YDL6.2 is based on Fedora 6. If that is the case, the PS3 linux is 5 generations behind. Of course applications built for the latest Fedora 11 would have problems on Fedora 6. PS3BleedingEdge.repo should concentrate on swapping everything that is possible from under YDL (and can get away with it) so that the latest software can get installed. The kernel does not have too much attachments to external libraries, so this should not be a big problem. Even if it does have a problem, the kernel can be swapped as well. But allow doing it from a YDL6.2 installation (because that is where the majority of the users are coming in from). Perhaps Billb or someone else can maintain as separate PS3 repo just for this purpose (but keep PS3bodega.repo for those who just want to surf the web.)

The next step would be to get the interface much user friendly for applications. XMB, iPhone, whatever, it would be a simple GUI layer above linux. Can you imagine what would happen if someone created a front end that resembles the iPhone or XMB on top of yellowdog linux? It would take off and lots of youtube videos will show up and maybe a big community will be created dedicated to it (wishful thinking?). Have an easy front end like how the Cydia uses Debian APT to store apps. Perhaps a PS3cydia that uses yum but with a much simpler graphical interface that allows easy install and creation of software for developers (including those that would like to get paid for their work). There is profit to be made if it is useful enough like Cydia is making a profit now.

Once this is setup, the number of engaged users will increase to the point where enough people would contribute to the hardware acceleration (via SPE or RSX hack) such that any limitations of the PS3 would be resolved as a faster pace. The entrance exam is too difficult at this moment (the benefits are not great enough for engaging users or developers).
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Re: Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby zerojay » 12 Aug 2009, 02:15

My brain just exploded.
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Re: Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby ppietro » 12 Aug 2009, 05:52

edepot wrote:Why doesn't the PS3 have something on par with Cydia? All PS3 are same, just like the iPhone. There is a free SDK from IBM to build software.


Unfortunately, Cell programming is difficult. IBM's SDK helps a little - but not a lot. Unless your application lends itself to asymmetrical threading, you end up using the PPE of the Cell exclusively - which is fairly weak sauce. :D

(PPE = Moderately fast single core, dual threaded PowerPC with no out-of-order execution and a standard AltiVec.)

The SDK from IBM is not the same as the iPhone SDK - it's just enough to control the Cell. Remember - the iPhone has almost a complete version of OS X behind it, with Apple's proven API libraries - Quartz, Aqua, etc. This makes life much simpler for the programmer. PS3 Linux is just Linux: XWindows + Gnome and/or KDE is not nearly as powerful as the Mac OS X libraries - or even the Microsoft Windows API for that matter.

I think more work has to be put in to make the linux partition easier for the PS3 user. Maybe make a front end for it so it resembles the XMB or iPhone interface, and let all the background command line be hidden.


Why?

I'm serious.

The people who would use this system you're proposing aren't going to be able to contribute anything to Linux - since they can't handle the command line in the first place.

These folks sound suspiciously like regular computer users to me - not programmers.

What you're really asking for is easy development tools for Linux beginners. That's a worthy project.

That way regular users are not horrified at the complexity of installing and uninstalling software on the PS3. I just looked at the post of the person trying to get songbird installed. Can you imagine giving up on an operating system because it has an unfriendly install process?


I think that just proved my point.

Songbird didn't exist as a standard installer package for YDL. Instead, it was a source code archive. This required basic Linux skills to unpack the archive, resolve the dependencies, build the source, and install it. A programmer does this every day, but regular users do not.

These regular users - as well intentioned as they may be - are not going to advance our Linux system. They have no skills that we can use - although, if they apply themselves dilligently to learning the system, they might. These are computer consumers and users - not programmers.

There are operating systems available for them - we call them Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X. :)

Maybe it's because I'm a software developer in real life - but I would shudder at the system you're proposing.

We had that once - remember the original 128k Apple Macintoshes? You could not develop any software on them - they had no programming interface and no command line.

Luckily, Apple put the command line back in OS X, and real work could get done again. :D

Maybe the problem is that YDL6.2 is not on the bleeding edge of operating systems.


No - that's not the problem. That's by design.

Again - YDL 6.2 is based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux. It is purposefully held back, to insure stability for Enterprise applications - servers, web farms, video render farms, scientific installations, etc.

Let me repeat that:

IT IS PURPOSEFULLY HELD BACK

Brand new Red Hat Enterprise Linux installations are at least three versions back from brand new current, bleeding edge Fedora installations.

I discussed why that is here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3684&p=16307#p16307

The way to fix this is to get someone to create a ps3BleedingEdge.repo and start upgrading to the latest and greatest stuff that works on the PS3.


Or - do the rational thing and just run Fedora on your PS3. It's there, it's established, it's already bleeding edge. What you're asking for is exactly what PS3 Fedora does.

Don't worry about protecting the YDL base, but worry about what latest version of software works on the PS3. I've read that the YDL6.2 is based on Fedora 6. If that is the case, the PS3 linux is 5 generations behind. Of course applications built for the latest Fedora 11 would have problems on Fedora 6. PS3BleedingEdge.repo should concentrate on swapping everything that is possible from under YDL (and can get away with it) so that the latest software can get installed. The kernel does not have too much attachments to external libraries, so this should not be a big problem. Even if it does have a problem, the kernel can be swapped as well. But allow doing it from a YDL6.2 installation (because that is where the majority of the users are coming in from). Perhaps Billb or someone else can maintain as separate PS3 repo just for this purpose (but keep PS3bodega.repo for those who just want to surf the web.)


No need to do any of this. That's what Fedora for PS3 is for.

YDL needs protectbase. This is a hallmark of *all* Enterprise Linuxes - SuSE Enterprise, Scientific Linux, CentOS, Red Hat Enterprise, etc.

In fact, protectbase itself was originally developed by the CentOS folks to save their systems from version creep. Red Hat Enterprise has no need for protectbase, since a typical RHEL installation uses dedicated repos from Red Hat and no external software is allowed.

CentOS didn't have access to these special Red Hat servers, so they started using Fedora and other 3rd party repos and quickly found their systems becoming unstable.

Have an easy front end like how the Cydia uses Debian APT to store apps.


Or - perhaps - just run PS3 Debian or ps3Ubuntu (which is Debian-based) then? Both of these have apt-get, and the synaptic package manager.

Perhaps a PS3cydia that uses yum but with a much simpler graphical interface that allows easy install and creation of software for developers (including those that would like to get paid for their work). There is profit to be made if it is useful enough like Cydia is making a profit now.


To be honest, I'd never heard of Cydia until you mentioned it. I had to Google it. It doesn't sound like anything I'd ever want to run. I never homebrewed my PSP either. :D

Once this is setup, the number of engaged users will increase to the point where enough people would contribute to the hardware acceleration (via SPE or RSX hack) such that any limitations of the PS3 would be resolved as a faster pace. The entrance exam is too difficult at this moment (the benefits are not great enough for engaging users or developers).


Actually - that probably won't happen. It's precisely because there is a Linux that the RSX hack hasn't been prioritized.

There's a You Tube video you ought to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtDTNnEvlf8

You don't have to watch the whole thing - just the first speaker - for about 5 minutes or so.

The basic tenet is that hacking occurs after the Linux nerds figure out how to get a system to boot Linux. If a vendor like Sony provides a Linux from the get-go, then Linux nerds don't bother figuring out the system, and move on. Without the Linux nerds, the hackers can't even get started, since getting Linux to run is such an arcane procedure.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby Taellik » 18 Aug 2009, 17:34

Don't see too many Fedora for PS3 content showing up any.

I hate to say it, but the Ubuntu crowd is starting to make inroads on the PS3 platform just as they have with the Ubuntu Remix version to compete with Winblows XP as installed OS on netbook hardware.

There seems to be a rash of You Tube vids on how to get Ubuntu's latest release 9.something up and running on a PS3. If this takes off, the number of Ubuntu followers and army of developers may overtake the Fixstars crew in putting out a stable, cutting edge OS for the PS3 platform.

They don't seem too concerned about being multiple releases behind or catering to "Enterprise" corporate installations, they seem to try to put out the latest software that has workable stability to actually use until the army of developers fix any user-reported bugs.


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Re: Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby ppietro » 18 Aug 2009, 18:27

Taellik wrote:If this takes off, the number of Ubuntu followers and army of developers may overtake the Fixstars crew in putting out a stable, cutting edge OS for the PS3 platform.


I don't doubt they will. I'm guessing the Fixstars folks make most of their money from sales to Enterprise companies with IBM Blade Servers, Mercury Clusters, Sony Zegos, etc. - the kind of folks that need an Enterprise Linux and not a cutting edge Linux.

They just need a stable Linux to run their custom code on - with a brick & mortar company to contact for support. Ubuntu has limited appeal to these folks.

I imagine that after the decision was made to switch from Fedora to RHEL as a code base, the PS3 support is aimed more at scientific users than hobbyist users - I'm thinking PS3 clusters for research, or Cell programming for CS students, etc.

Note - this is just speculation on my part - I am not a Fixstars employee :D

Personally, I just wish it wasn't Ubuntu. Nothing against them personally - I just don't like Debian Linux as much as I like Red Hat Linuxes. Too bad Fedora PS3 hasn't stepped up. :D

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Re: Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby Taellik » 18 Aug 2009, 18:45

Personally, I just wish it wasn't Ubuntu. Nothing against them personally - I just don't like Debian Linux as much as I like Red Hat Linuxes. Too bad Fedora PS3 hasn't stepped up. :D

Cheers,
Paul


I'm not so sure it would be a bad-thing. If the Ubuntu crowd starts making software that's usable and wanted by the masses, and Sony follows through with the price-cut for the PS3, it could be a win-win.

I see two (2 ) possible outcomes :

1) Fixstars might find themselves in a position to start looking at number of individuals who own the PS3 in addition to the cash-cows of corporations, academia, etc. and might be the spark to get the cobwebs off YDL and get it's features positioned in a more contemporary competitive position to fend-off Ubuntu as OS of choice for the PS3 for the masses. Already see Ubuntu going this way with their released desktop and server editions and now their netbook and PS3 flavors making an appearance at those consumer markets.

2) Fixstars will abandon the individual user and commit 100% to the corporate / academic direction.

PS I don't work for Ubuntu / Fixstars / Sony etc. hehe :D

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Re: Biggest Problems with YDL Linux on PS3

Postby ppietro » 18 Aug 2009, 21:52

Taellik wrote:Fixstars might find themselves in a position to start looking at number of individuals who own the PS3 in addition to the cash-cows of corporations, academia, etc. and might be the spark to get the cobwebs off YDL and get it's features positioned in a more contemporary competitive position to fend-off Ubuntu as OS of choice for the PS3 for the masses


(emphasis added by me)

The problem with that is TerraSoft/Fixstars already abandoned this.

Remember - YDL 5.0 and previous versions were based on fairly current Fedora builds. Starting with YDL 6.0, they are based on CentOS/RHEL. This immediately put them back 3 Fedora versions.

I doubt very much they'll switch YDL 7.0 back to Fedora at this point. Chances are, YDL will continue to be the PowerPC version of RHEL, since Red Hat themselves don't cover this market. (RHEL is x86 only.)

This isn't always a fixed 3 year delta. The next version of RHEL should be based on a modified Fedora 11. So - that's good news. It will just stay Fedora 11 until Fedora 14 comes out. :D

(See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hat_en ... tributions
)

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