linux bias

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linux bias

Postby bonedome » 26 Apr 2009, 22:44

MS Windows converts are always moaning about how complicated linux is, I spend about 2 hours a week cleaning all the crap out of my girlfriends windows xp computer, defrag, disc clean, virus scan, spyware malware scan etc etc and there's always one problem or other (this week 2 trojans), makes me like linux more and more :mrgreen:
60Gb ps3 otheros awol. currently playing:bad company and farcry 2 again (seeing how far I can get using permadeath principle)update: regretfully Warren Clyde was involved in a shootout south of Pala and killed when he was hit by a land rover. RIP Warren
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Re: linux bias

Postby ppietro » 27 Apr 2009, 03:13

I find this web page extremely comforting:
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. :D
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Re: linux bias

Postby CronoCloud » 27 Apr 2009, 06:31

ppietro wrote:I find this web page extremely comforting:
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm


Me too, as well as the smart questions one that you've pointed to before:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

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Re: linux bias

Postby ppietro » 27 Apr 2009, 07:38

CronoCloud wrote:Me too, as well as the smart questions one that you've pointed to before:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


I'm not sure if I sent you that article originally or not. Either way - it's a great article and I'm glad you posted the link here. I especially like this part:

Don't ask people to reply by private e-mail
Hackers believe solving problems should be a public, transparent process during which a first try at an answer can and should be corrected if someone more knowledgeable notices that it is incomplete or incorrect. Also, helpers get some of their reward for being respondents from being seen to be competent and knowledgeable by their peers.

When you ask for a private reply, you are disrupting both the process and the reward. Don't do this. It's the respondent's choice whether to reply privately — and if he does, it's usually because he thinks the question is too ill-formed or obvious to be interesting to others.


These paragraphs should be required reading before anyone shoots me a PM. I've made it a policy never to answer technical questions in a PM for precisely these reasons. I can't tell you how many times I've had to send out a polite deferral, then re-post user questions in the forums.

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. Also - unlike PMs - answers I post in the forums are searchable by all users. :D
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Re: linux bias

Postby aguilarojo » 07 Jun 2009, 22:46

bonedome wrote:MS Windows converts are always moaning about how complicated linux is, I spend about 2 hours a week cleaning all the crap out of my girlfriends windows xp computer, defrag, disc clean, virus scan, spyware malware scan etc etc and there's always one problem or other (this week 2 trojans), makes me like linux more and more :mrgreen:


I thought everyone along this thread would enjoy referencing for themselves the results of the PWN2OWN contest of 2008 which tested operating systems directly.
Simply stated OS X failed first, Windows Vista was next. Our favorite, Linux, was conquered last. Here's the link:

http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2008/03/28/pwn-to-own-final-day-and-wrap-up

All the best... :D

Everything on the Earth has a purpose.
Every disease an herb to cure it.
And every person has a mission.
This is the Indian Theory of Existence.
-- Morning Dove, Salish (1888-1936)
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Re: linux bias

Postby bonedome » 24 Jul 2009, 13:27

Hello
it seems google has also gone linux, the google chrome operating system is out soon, what they have almost completely forgotten to mention in their press releases is it's basically another linux distro, although reading between the lines they want to base it around their web browser.
If google want to disguise the fact it's linux or to keep their brand identity intact that's up to them but I'll be keeping an eye on development.
60Gb ps3 otheros awol. currently playing:bad company and farcry 2 again (seeing how far I can get using permadeath principle)update: regretfully Warren Clyde was involved in a shootout south of Pala and killed when he was hit by a land rover. RIP Warren
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Re: linux bias

Postby ppietro » 24 Jul 2009, 21:41

bonedome wrote:it seems google has also gone linux, the google chrome operating system is out soon, what they have almost completely forgotten to mention in their press releases is it's basically another linux distro, although reading between the lines they want to base it around their web browser.


Except that it's not really Linux.

It's using a Linux kernel - but that's where the similarities end. From the original developer blog post - http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... me-os.html

"Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux
kernel."

This doesn't mean that the rest of Linux will be there. I'm thinking it will be closer to MacOS X - which uses a Mach kernel to drive a completely customized and optimized windowing system on top of a small BSD Unix. If you had enough faith in your GUI tools, you could drop the Unix part almost completely, since BSDs are generally designed around monolithic kernels like Linux, not Mach kernels. :D

In other words, Apple's already de-coupled their kernel from their Unix, since they chose to use a non-standard kernel.

Obviously, this is conjecture on my part. Until we see Google Chrome OS running somewhere - we're all going to be guessing. :D

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: linux bias

Postby aguilarojo » 25 Jul 2009, 01:57

ppietro wrote:
bonedome wrote:it seems google has also gone linux, the google chrome operating system is out soon, what they have almost completely forgotten to mention in their press releases is it's basically another linux distro, although reading between the lines they want to base it around their web browser.


Except that it's not really Linux.

It's using a Linux kernel - but that's where the similarities end. ... it will be closer to MacOS X - which uses a Mach kernel to drive a completely customized and optimized windowing system on top of a small BSD Unix. If you had enough faith in your GUI tools, you could drop the Unix part almost completely, since BSDs are generally designed around monolithic kernels like Linux, not Mach kernels. :D

In other words, Apple's already de-coupled their kernel from their Unix, since they chose to use a non-standard kernel.

Obviously, this is conjecture on my part. ...
Paul


Paul your conjecture is very, very close to fact regarding how Apple uses the Unix kernel. The Finder, which is what more people are familiar with has components that communicates with a variety of Unix-like tools which are directly accessible via Apple's Terminal. However the Finder of OS X remains a relative of Finder version 8 and earlier. In other words what people are buying with OS X is less the power of Unix than years of effort modifying the Finder so that it implements Unix-like functions in an entertaining although in my opinion wasteful manner.

Linux is straightforward in allowing sufficiently skilled persons or others willing to develop programming and other technical skills, the capability to build, install and implement functions and/or services which one would have to pay either Microsoft, Apple or someone else to implement. One can try to do things their own way within Apple or Microsoft's OS but eventually one will find that what when finally someone a program uniquely useful to address their required procedures of completing a task, inevitably there will arrive a time when that program won't work in the next version of that commercial OS. This is further complicated that both Microsoft and Apple are using Unix/Linux-like features or functions, whereas in Linux and even in YDL one can pretty much do as one wants. In comparison, because of their insistence of their way or no way, Apple and Microsoft have more and more in common. Invariably in new versions of either Microsoft's or Apple's OS - libraries and tools are inexplicably removed breaking the foundations of one's prior efforts. Also there is no way to get the program one designed working again without reinstalling major libraries and other tools which were removed and then somehow recompile or try to that commercial OS, which comes to why Apple and Microsoft are more similar than they are different -- they've both decided that users are not allowed to know but so much.

Linux and this includes YDL, offers something different. You can install and build what you wish and are encouraged by the sheer vastness of what can be potentially done to master even more. Now that is a level of coolness which will never change! :D

Although oddly enough Microsoft has proven itself more stable than Apple considering that Apple remains the least secure system commercially available. That however, is a different topic.

Everything on the Earth has a purpose.
Every disease an herb to cure it.
And every person has a mission.
This is the Indian Theory of Existence.
-- Morning Dove, Salish (1888-1936)
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Re: linux bias

Postby Digitalgenicide » 07 Aug 2009, 18:18

Google went linux a while ago. most of google's employees use and off shoot of Ubuntu. I,ve been reading allot of stuff about Google Chrome OS and i really don't understand the hype. the Web Browser is the OS. but why would i need that if i already have an OS with a web browser Plus a whole lot of other applications. Also what if ur unable to get a wi-fi signal. Would u still be able to watch movies,play games,or type documents. I cant wait to see chrome OS, but i highly doubt it will live up to the hype, much less dethrone windows like many are claiming. I think if Google released a version of Ubuntu with their name on it. that would probibly hurt Microsoft alt more.
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Re: linux bias

Postby ppietro » 07 Aug 2009, 18:53

Digitalgenicide wrote:I,ve been reading allot of stuff about Google Chrome OS and i really don't understand the hype. the Web Browser is the OS. but why would i need that if i already have an OS with a web browser Plus a whole lot of other applications


So - Google Chrome OS is not designed for standard PCs. It's really aimed at netbooks, I think. What you have there are relatively slow machines with limited storage space and simple graphics. Google Chrome OS would excel at that.

The OS is a simple Linux kernel, very minimal Unix OS, and custom graphic system. The Chrome browser would be more like Konqueror in KDE. There, Konqueror handles web browsing and file management.

Remember - Safari & Chrome are both based on KDE's Konqueror, via webkit. :D

By using a custom graphics system, instead of X Windows, you could *dramatically* increase the graphics speed and reduce the memory footprint. Apple's Quartz Compositor is prime example of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_Compositor

In fact, Chrome OS sounds an awful lot like Mac OS X, without the corresponding performance hit Apple incurs by insisting on using a Mach kernel in a BSD Unix.

Another example of this architecture would be BeOS. Although no longer in development, at the time, BeOS was one of the fastest OSes you could run. (I still miss it.)

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. You can read about some of the performance issues Mac OS X has because of this mis-match between BSD & Mach here:
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436&p=7

P.P.S. The last build of BeOS runs great under Virtual PC. :D
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Re: linux bias

Postby ppietro » 07 Aug 2009, 19:02

ppietro wrote:P.S. You can read about some of the performance issues Mac OS X has because of this mis-match between BSD & Mach here:
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436&p=7


Oh yeah - totally forgot the final paragraph of this article:

"Workstation apps will hardly mind, but the performance of server applications depends greatly on the threading, signalling and locking engine. I am no operating system expert, but with the data that we have today, I think that a PowerPC optimised Linux such as Yellow Dog is a better idea for the Xserve than Mac OS X server. "

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. Check out the evil graph on this page of the report:
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436&p=6
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Re: linux bias

Postby levian » 16 Sep 2009, 08:07

bonedome wrote:MS Windows converts are always moaning about how complicated linux is,


we can't help it really. being more exposed to ms than linux, it is a pain, even during installation, without digging out lots of guides beforehand. haha. but the more i am exposed to it, the more fun i see in it. slowly i am digging my way through. hopefully finding a spot comfortable enough to stay.
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