YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

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YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ning » 22 Apr 2010, 08:41

Hi guys,
is there still any YDL 6.2 update?
I worry more YDL updates than Sony's, I rarely change to GameOS.
Thanks guys, this site is very helpful. YDL 6.2 truly makes my PS3 a very nice supercomputer :lol:
I also hope the YDL can run on upcomming amigaone x1000.
What is amigaone x1000's CPU, how can it compare to fixstar's powerstation's?
I just wonder why people don't just simply make a cell processor computer.

Thanks.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby xnonsuchx » 27 Apr 2010, 08:51

The Cell B.E. is not a general purpose CPU like most desktop computers use. The PowerPC core in the Cell B.E. is a 'crippled' G5 CPU, so not even as fast as the PowerMac G5 computers from before they switched to Intel CPUs. The Cell B.E. only 'shines' when given tons of small operations (e.g. calculating physics or other graphics the GPU doesn't handle on its own), coding/decoding data, etc.) that can run on the bank of SPUs/SPEs, which isn't useful for most standard desktop computer operations.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 27 Apr 2010, 11:18

xnonsuchx wrote:The Cell B.E. is not a general purpose CPU like most desktop computers use. The PowerPC core in the Cell B.E. is a 'crippled' G5 CPU, so not even as fast as the PowerMac G5 computers from before they switched to Intel CPUs. The Cell B.E. only 'shines' when given tons of small operations (e.g. calculating physics or other graphics the GPU doesn't handle on its own), coding/decoding data, etc.) that can run on the bank of SPUs/SPEs, which isn't useful for most standard desktop computer operations.


Really?So what kind of CPU do you think is "useful for most standard desktop computer operations"?
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ppietro » 27 Apr 2010, 11:34

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:
xnonsuchx wrote:The Cell B.E. is not a general purpose CPU like most desktop computers use. The PowerPC core in the Cell B.E. is a 'crippled' G5 CPU, so not even as fast as the PowerMac G5 computers from before they switched to Intel CPUs. The Cell B.E. only 'shines' when given tons of small operations (e.g. calculating physics or other graphics the GPU doesn't handle on its own), coding/decoding data, etc.) that can run on the bank of SPUs/SPEs, which isn't useful for most standard desktop computer operations.


Really?So what kind of CPU do you think is "useful for most standard desktop computer operations"?


That's easy - any standard microprocessor that's not the Cell. :lol:

One of the big issues with the PPE core of the Cell is the lack of "out-of-order" processing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-order_execution

This really hurts PPE performance.

There's an article on AnandTech that explains more about this:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/1647/3

The PPE features a 64KB L1 cache and a 512KB L2 cache and features SMT, similar to Intel's Hyper Threading. The PPE features a strictly in-order core, which the desktop x86 market hasn't seen since the death of the original Pentium (the Pentium Pro brought out-of-order execution to the x86 market), so the move for an in-order core is an interesting one. The PPE is also only a 2-issue core, meaning that, at best, it can execute two instructions simultaneously. For comparison, the Athlon 64 is a 3-issue core, so immediately, you get the sense that the PPE is a much simpler core than anything that we have on the desktop. IBM's VMX instruction set (aka Altivec) is also supported by the PPE. Much like the rest of the Cell processor, the PPE is designed to run at very high clock speeds.


IMHO, any modern x86-64 processor is a good desktop choice. The price/performance combination of x86-64 is pretty unbeatable.

If you're talking specific processors - for Intel, I'm digging the Core i series: Core i7, Core i5, Core i3. If you prefer AMD, the price of the Phenom II is attractive.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 27 Apr 2010, 11:35

Also CellBE means not only a CPU,but also a CPU arcitecture some time.
Theoretically,PPE can also be PowerPC 970(G5) or other PowerPC architecture instead.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 27 Apr 2010, 11:39

ppietro wrote:
ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:
xnonsuchx wrote:The Cell B.E. is not a general purpose CPU like most desktop computers use. The PowerPC core in the Cell B.E. is a 'crippled' G5 CPU, so not even as fast as the PowerMac G5 computers from before they switched to Intel CPUs. The Cell B.E. only 'shines' when given tons of small operations (e.g. calculating physics or other graphics the GPU doesn't handle on its own), coding/decoding data, etc.) that can run on the bank of SPUs/SPEs, which isn't useful for most standard desktop computer operations.


Really?So what kind of CPU do you think is "useful for most standard desktop computer operations"?


That's easy - any standard microprocessor that's not the Cell. :lol:

One of the big issues with the PPE core of the Cell is the lack of "out-of-order" processing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-order_execution

This really hurts PPE performance.

IMHO, any modern x86-64 processor is a good desktop choice. The price/performance combination of x86-64 is pretty unbeatable.

If you're talking specific processors - for Intel, I'm digging the Core i series: Core i7, Core i5, Core i3. If you prefer AMD, the price of the Phenom II is attractive.

Cheers,
Paul


In fact,I don't like CISC but there is no other choice for desktop use right now! :D
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ppietro » 27 Apr 2010, 11:46

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:Also CellBE means not only a CPU,but also a CPU arcitecture some time.
Theoretically,PPE can also be PowerPC 970(G5) or other PowerPC architecture instead.


Theoretically, yes - but practically no. The die of the Cell with 1 PPE and 8 SPEs is cramped enough as it is. Trying to extend the PPE to G5 levels would take quite the engineering effort, I think. An effort that IBM doesn't seem to be interested in.

Even the IBM PowerXCell 8i variant appears to use a standard PPE:
http://tinyurl.com/2bey62s

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. Yes - there are 8 SPEs on a Cell - but the PS3 only uses 7 of them. One is locked out at the factory to improve chip yields.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 27 Apr 2010, 11:49

ppietro wrote:
ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:Also CellBE means not only a CPU,but also a CPU arcitecture some time.
Theoretically,PPE can also be PowerPC 970(G5) or other PowerPC architecture instead.


Theoretically, yes - but practically no. The die of the Cell with 1 PPE and 8 SPEs is cramped enough as it is. Trying to extend the PPE to G5 levels would take quite the engineering effort, I think. An effort that IBM doesn't seem to be interested in.

Even the IBM PowerXCell 8i variant appears to use a standard PPE:
http://tinyurl.com/2bey62s

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. Yes - there are 8 SPEs on a Cell - but the PS3 only uses 7 of them. One is locked out at the factory to improve chip yields.


And one SPE is used by XMB,only 6 SPEs can be used to customer.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ppietro » 27 Apr 2010, 11:59

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:And one SPE is used by XMB,only 6 SPEs can be used to customer.


It's not really used by the XMB per se. To the best of our knowledge, the 7th SPE is reserved - both for the XMB and for any games - for encryption/decryption.

I wrote a pretty good explanation here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&p=37831#p37828
and here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4015&p=36834#p36834

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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 27 Apr 2010, 12:20

ppietro wrote:
ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:And one SPE is used by XMB,only 6 SPEs can be used to customer.


It's not really used by the XMB per se. To the best of our knowledge, the 7th SPE is reserved - both for the XMB and for any games - for encryption/decryption.

I wrote a pretty good explanation here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&p=37831#p37828
and here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4015&p=36834#p36834

Cheers,
Paul


I think not only the 7th SPE do encryption/decryption in XMB,but also RSX.
If RSX is only a GPU(Graphics Processing Unit but not Generall processing Unit),why SONY never want to open the environment of development of RSX?Is RSX simply equal to GeForce7800GTX?I never think so.
As what lots of Hackers said:the most difficult thing of hacking PS3 is to hack RSX.I have never heard that if you want to hack a computer,you have to hack the GPU first.
Also RSX has a powerful parallel processing ability which is just suitable for encryption/decryption.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ppietro » 27 Apr 2010, 12:40

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:I think not only the 7th SPE do encryption/decryption in XMB,but also RSX.


No - most likely not. The RSX is protected from general access by the hypervisor. There's no real need to use the RSX to do additional encryption.

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:If RSX is only a GPU(Graphics Processing Unit but not Generall processing Unit),why SONY never want to open the environment of development of RSX?


The answer is very self evident. If the RSX was open to general access, then pirating games via Linux would be much easier. You'd just need an unencrypted build of the game that you could convert to running on the Linux kernel. Since Linux has all 6 SPEs available, you'd just need to hook it up to the I/O and the (unprotected) RSX.

Having the RSX behind the hypervisor is just another level of protection.

According to the original YDL documentation, the RSX was fully open on the Zego:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zego
and here:
http://www.ydl.net/support/hardware/sony.shtml

Since these boxes were roughly $10,000 US, they could afford to let you access it. :D

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:Is RSX simply equal to GeForce7800GTX?I never think so.


Man - I'm not getting into this argument again!!
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7136

(But - yeah - I think it is a modified 7800. Sorry. ;))

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:Also RSX has a powerful parallel processing ability which is just suitable for encryption/decryption.


Sure - but if you read through the IBM link, the encryption/decryption is done on the Cell because of the hardware lockout:

from my own summary:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4015&p=36834#p36834

Now - this article is pretty technical. But - Kanna Shimizu is the architect of the Cell's security, and she summarizes the three main security features in the Cell:

1. "The Secure Processing Vault" - This means you can give an SPE some code to execute, then "lock" it away in a vault. Once it enters this "vault", it runs independently from the rest of the system - in hardware. There's no way to look at its local store (LS) memory or see what it's doing - you can only talk to it via its own interface or kick it out of the system.

As the article states: "Because of this hardware isolation, even the operating system and the hypervisor cannot access the locked up LS or take control of the SPE core"

This is what the 7th SPE does - it is running Sony encryption/decryption software locked in the Secure processing vault. This 7th SPE is providing the security for the GameOS.

2. "Runtime secure boot" - When an SPE enters isolation, it fetches a key from hardware and verifies the code is still encrypted correctly. It can do this multiple times, removing the ability to tamper and run unsigned code.

3. "Hardware Root Of Secrecy" - Finally, the master, root encryption key of the system is kept in hardware in the core of the Cell itself. It cannot be accessed via software and is invoked when an SPE enters isolation mode. A non-isolation SPE cannot access the root master key.


Why would you even run the risk of encryption/decryption on the RSX where it could be sniffed out? Only the SPE can't be sniffed at this time since it's on chip. Besides, since the RSX is roughly a 7800, you need all of the GPU power to handle graphics. It doesn't have enough left over to handle encryption, IMHO.

Cheers,
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ning » 28 Apr 2010, 08:23

"useful for most standard desktop computer operations"

It varies, i didn't see anything on office and internet slower than a pc on my ps3 YDL6.2. Taking to the games, it comes back all the way to the power of the Cell.

I only can see lots of performance power holding at the hands of a programmer:
x86 has, of course, more mature general optimization tools, but this can turn back to against them if programmers can carefully carve their codes, in case of the Cell, 2 threads and 32 128-bit vector registers, 6 spes each has 128 of 128-bit vector registers, etc. In practice, one even don't need much library functions at hand. Experience is more important and it takes time. Resources may slow, block, crash and gun down each down, in particular, the 2 threads of the ppe.

As I told to a guy many years ago, who was at the original Intel x86 design team, that the idea of segmented addressing is stupid, the 68K is far more elegant; Yes, he said, but take care business rather than science always win.

We now experience exactly what this guy said after many years :lol:

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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 03 May 2010, 12:22

ppietro wrote:
ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:I think not only the 7th SPE do encryption/decryption in XMB,but also RSX.


No - most likely not. The RSX is protected from general access by the hypervisor. There's no real need to use the RSX to do additional encryption.

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:If RSX is only a GPU(Graphics Processing Unit but not Generall processing Unit),why SONY never want to open the environment of development of RSX?


The answer is very self evident. If the RSX was open to general access, then pirating games via Linux would be much easier. You'd just need an unencrypted build of the game that you could convert to running on the Linux kernel. Since Linux has all 6 SPEs available, you'd just need to hook it up to the I/O and the (unprotected) RSX.

Having the RSX behind the hypervisor is just another level of protection.

According to the original YDL documentation, the RSX was fully open on the Zego:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zego
and here:
http://www.ydl.net/support/hardware/sony.shtml

Since these boxes were roughly $10,000 US, they could afford to let you access it. :D

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:Is RSX simply equal to GeForce7800GTX?I never think so.


Man - I'm not getting into this argument again!!
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7136

(But - yeah - I think it is a modified 7800. Sorry. ;))

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:Also RSX has a powerful parallel processing ability which is just suitable for encryption/decryption.


Sure - but if you read through the IBM link, the encryption/decryption is done on the Cell because of the hardware lockout:

from my own summary:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4015&p=36834#p36834

Now - this article is pretty technical. But - Kanna Shimizu is the architect of the Cell's security, and she summarizes the three main security features in the Cell:

1. "The Secure Processing Vault" - This means you can give an SPE some code to execute, then "lock" it away in a vault. Once it enters this "vault", it runs independently from the rest of the system - in hardware. There's no way to look at its local store (LS) memory or see what it's doing - you can only talk to it via its own interface or kick it out of the system.

As the article states: "Because of this hardware isolation, even the operating system and the hypervisor cannot access the locked up LS or take control of the SPE core"

This is what the 7th SPE does - it is running Sony encryption/decryption software locked in the Secure processing vault. This 7th SPE is providing the security for the GameOS.

2. "Runtime secure boot" - When an SPE enters isolation, it fetches a key from hardware and verifies the code is still encrypted correctly. It can do this multiple times, removing the ability to tamper and run unsigned code.

3. "Hardware Root Of Secrecy" - Finally, the master, root encryption key of the system is kept in hardware in the core of the Cell itself. It cannot be accessed via software and is invoked when an SPE enters isolation mode. A non-isolation SPE cannot access the root master key.


Why would you even run the risk of encryption/decryption on the RSX where it could be sniffed out? Only the SPE can't be sniffed at this time since it's on chip. Besides, since the RSX is roughly a 7800, you need all of the GPU power to handle graphics. It doesn't have enough left over to handle encryption, IMHO.

Cheers,
Paul


If RSX is really for handling graphics,why SCE need CellBE as the CPU for PS3 but not PowerPC(970 for example) just like Macintosh or PC?The only thing that can explain the phenonmenon is that CellBE is built for all multimedia processing(including video audio internet and so on) as all OpenPower architecture processors are no secret to programmers,RSX is built for encoding/decoding as the ISA(Instruction Set Architecture) of RSX is really different from GeForce 7800GTX.
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ppietro » 03 May 2010, 21:11

ACEFOMIQUZ wrote:If RSX is really for handling graphics,why SCE need CellBE as the CPU for PS3 but not PowerPC(970 for example) just like Macintosh or PC?


Huh? The answer is simple.

Ken Kutaragi

Ken, as you no doubt remember, originally started out as a DSP engineer at Sony. He doesn't really like CPU+GPU architectures. He likes CPU+DSP architectures.

from http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell1_v2.html

The Cell concept was originally thought up by Sony Computer Entertainment inc. of Japan, for the PlayStation 3. The genesis of the idea was in 1999 when Sony’s Ken Kutaragi “Father of the PlayStation” was thinking about a computer which acted like Cells in a biological system. A patent was applied for listing Masakazu Suzuoki and Takeshi Yamazaki as the inventors in 2002.

It is comprised of hardware and software Cells, software Cells consist of data and programs (known as jobs or apulets), these are sent out to the hardware Cells where they are computed, the results are then returned.

This architecture is not fixed, if you have a computer, PS3 and HDTV which have Cell processors they can co-operate on problems. They've been talking about this sort of thing for years of course but the Cell is actually designed to do it.


The original design of the PS3 did not have a PC-type GPU. They were going to use a custom, Sony designed chip for graphics output only, and do all of the 3D graphics generation on the Cell. Ken had even proposed a Twin-Cell system at one point.

This is very similar to the PS2 design, BTW. Subsitute Cell for EE and "Unnamed Sony Chip" for GS, and you see where Ken was going.

Instead, according to "The Race For A New Game Machine", by Shippy & Phipps, Sony's design teams were unable to complete their graphics chip in time. This put the launch of the PS3 in jeopardy. A mad scramble ensued, and nVidia was able to take their 7800 chipset and roll it out to meet the Sony launch date and specifications.

Again - to be clear - the RSX wasn't originally part of the PS3's design.

As for the "RSX can't be based on the 7800, etc.", here's a quote from David Kirk, Chief Scientist at nVidia:

The two products share the same heritage, the same technology. But RSX is faster


from http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2005/07/11 ... nterview/2

and again from nVidia's Director of Public Relations, Derek Perez:

There's no doubting that NVIDIA's new 7800GTX is the ultimate in PC graphics technology. The card's G70 GPU, which is more than twice as powerful as two of NVIDIA's previous top-of-the-line 6800 boards, shares a lot of similar workings with the PS3's RSX chip - only it isn't as fast. Oh, and it retails for $599.


from http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9132/Play ... orce-7800/ based on an article from September PSM, 2005.

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. For further reading, I'd suggest taking a quick glance here:
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/reviews/2000/02/ee.ars

This is the PS2 graphics pipeline. It represents a kind of shift away from PC architecture. I personally think Ken wanted this for the PS3 as well.

Also - you'll want to take a look at these:
http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_RSX_GPU
and
http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html ... PS3_Models

for more about the RSX and its history.

Also - I found the comments here a good read:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51518
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Re: YDL 6.2 update & amigaone x1000

Postby ACEFOMIQUZ » 29 Jul 2010, 05:22

So you mean RSX is a DSP,right?
If "yes",can you explain for what SCE lock the functions of RSX in OTHEROS mode?
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