Wine in YDL PPC?

[DemonDelight]

I'm really disappointed with what seems like a definitive lack of organized information about YDL on the PS3.

I'm wondering about running Wine through YDL, to have some basic luxuries from windows. All I really found about the idea is a few very old topics saying Wine cant run on PPC, And I know it can since i used to run it in Ubuntu Jaunty distro.

Can i get it for YDL?

[Jenraux]

Not sure why it cant run on the PS3, something to do with the CPU architecture being different, but as you say, its PPC. Thats all i've heard about it, if you could get it to run on PPC, it would be a great leap for the PS3.

[ppietro]

I'm wondering about running Wine through YDL, to have some basic luxuries from windows. All I really found about the idea is a few very old topics saying Wine cant run on PPC, And I know it can since i used to run it in Ubuntu Jaunty distro.

That is incorrect. Wine is definitely tied to x86. There is NO powerpc version of Wine.

See here:
http://wiki.winehq.org/MacOSX/FAQs#head ... d91bd276f5

Darwine is the effort to port Wine to PowerPC processors, but still can't run windows binaries directly yet. The project seems to be dead.

There is an obscure way to get it to run - but you have to use QEMU "in-line". Basically, you tie any x86 binary to autolaunch in a QEMU session. (i.e. binfmt support) This may be what you were doing in Ubuntu.

I wrote a very detailed post about that here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4667&start=0

One user got it working via my instructions here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4667&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=75#p26935

There's other threads we've written about Wine here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5129&start=0

Cheers,
Paul

[Jenraux]

Ewww i hate Qemu, had way too much hassle trying to get that thingie working, kept saying my disk was bad on win98 install and asked me to either install special drivers or contact my dealer. Not to mention i didnt have a WIn98 CD anymore, and all the ones i found were in Czech or Spanish or French.

Thats a shame, either someone needs to start making clones of windows games, or we hope WINE gets a PPC release.

[ppietro]

or we hope WINE gets a PPC release.

Technically, this is a big problem. Since you're trying to run Windows DLLs, you will need an x86 processor. Wine just allows Linux to use Windows DLLs - it doesn't attempt to solve the processor translation issues between x86 & ppc.

From the same FAQ:
http://wiki.winehq.org/MacOSX/FAQs#head ... 3ae0b40f1c

Darwine began as an effort to port Wine to PowerPC Macs. Because Wine itself is not a CPU emulator, the Darwine project's chief difference is the incorporation of a CPU emulator into Wine. Since the Intel models were released, the Darwine project divided its focus: Darwine for Intel Macs is a normal port of wine for its operating system. Notice, that official WineHQ source supports Mac OSX x86 very well, and Darwine is NO MORE NEEDED to run Windows x86 applications under x86 Macs.

So - basically - the PPC version of Wine would need to include some sort of x86 emulator. This is different from most source code projects where you can compile for whichever processor you need. I think the key here is the Windows DLLs that Wine uses. If Windows ran on PPC, Wine would be a lot easier.

Cheers,
Paul

[Jenraux]

And taking into account the PS3's actual power, a windows emulator would probably make it fairly dead. Qemu does particularly well at it. But even DOSBOX which emulates DOS, runs slowly on the PS3, or does for me anyhow.

[DemonDelight]

Hmm maybe i just confused myself, you see, i had ubuntu 9.04 jaunty installed on my ps3, and 9.04 installed on my lap top at the same time. I remember downoading torrents on my ps3 (although it was probably just through the default torrent program) and i also remember using wine to run bittorrent (most likely on my laptop) sorry for my confusion. i just thought for sure i had it working on my ps3!

[Jenraux]

Well the PS3 has several torrent programs available for it, such as Azereus(?) and bittorrent.

[ACEFOMIQUZ]

Can Darwine.dmg be repackaged to .ppc.rpm format?

[alastor]

Can Darwine.dmg be repackaged to .ppc.rpm format?

Well, theoretically it must be possible ( PowerPC arch in both of them ), but you need to track down all dependencies that this package has in MAC . However, I doubt it is worth a try - you will get about 100MHz output in best scenario. ( It would make a lot more sense to emulate Mac PowerPC, though the stupid thing is that 32 bit ppc kernel doesn't work on ps3. )

[ppietro]

Can Darwine.dmg be repackaged to .ppc.rpm format?

Well, theoretically it must be possible ( PowerPC arch in both of them ), but you need to track down all dependencies that this package has in MAC . However, I doubt it is worth a try - you will get about 100MHz output in best scenario. ( It would make a lot more sense to emulate Mac PowerPC, though the stupid thing is that 32 bit ppc kernel doesn't work on ps3. )

To clarify a little, Macs don't use Linux (or BSD) kernels.

They use a proprietary kernel known as XNU:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU

It's based on the Carnegie/Mellon Mach kernel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_kernel

Mac OS X is a weird beast - it's basically a BSD Unix distribution with a Mach kernel grafted onto it.

All Mac OS X files are in a "mach-o" binary format, instead of the traditional Linux ELF format. This is why we can't run them directly.

So - it's not only a matter of repackaging the files. You have to convert them to ELF somehow. And take care of any XNU kernel dependencies and translate them into Linux kernel, if necessary.

It might be easier to look at the source and try to convert it there.

Cheers,
Paul

[alastor]

To clarify a little, Macs don't use Linux (or BSD) kernels.

My bad - and I thought that Mac was closer to Unix.

All Mac OS X files are in a "mach-o" binary format, instead of the traditional Linux ELF format. This is why we can't run them directly.

Wait, you say ELF ? Isn't it a.out ? ( On my system it states so. ) Anyway it is another obstacle.

Sorry for off topic, Paul, but I can't understand what then makes it so hard in running MacOS on ppc64, if all you have to do is getting a Mac environment ( with Sheep Shaver or Mac-on-Linux ) and getting some general drivers to work ? I know that we can't run 32-bit PowerPC kernel, only 64-bit PowerPC, but it is still ppc anyhow, isn't it ? After all if that for some reason is actually impossible, why don't just emulate 32-bit kernel ?

[ppietro]

To clarify a little, Macs don't use Linux (or BSD) kernels.

My bad - and I thought that Mac was closer to Unix.

All Mac OS X files are in a "mach-o" binary format, instead of the traditional Linux ELF format. This is why we can't run them directly.

Wait, you say ELF ? Isn't it a.out ? ( On my system it states so. ) Anyway it is another obstacle.

Try this. On your system, find a binary executable, and use the "file" command on it.

e.g.

file /bin/ls

You should get something like this:

Code: Select all

[paulp@yurie ~]$ file /bin/ls
/bin/ls: ELF 32-bit MSB executable, PowerPC or cisco 4500, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
[paulp@yurie ~]$

Sorry for off topic, Paul, but I can't understand what then makes it so hard in running MacOS on ppc64, if all you have to do is getting a Mac environment ( with Sheep Shaver or Mac-on-Linux ) and getting some general drivers to work ? I know that we can't run 32-bit PowerPC kernel, only 64-bit PowerPC, but it is still ppc anyhow, isn't it ? After all if that for some reason is actually impossible, why don't just emulate 32-bit kernel ?

I'm not sure why this isn't possible. We should be able to run 32 code on our 64 bit processor - including kernels. Perhaps it has something to do with emulating the XNU kernel. Maybe because the PPU isn't capable of out-of-order instructions, like standard PowerPC chips? There may be an issue with that.

Or - it could be something much simpler like Sheep Shaver/Mac-on-Linux are expecting to be run on Macs, and take advantage of the ROM support built-in to the Mac. i.e. since the PS3 doesn't have Mac roms, they won't run. I'm guessing this is most likely.

Cheers,
Paul

[billb]

It was all I could think about for a while, trying to run Mac OS via Sheepshaver without having to use the processor emulator. I did eventually get a Mac OS up and running on it on the PS3, but it had to use PPC emulation even while running on PPC.

There are some notes in the RPM package for it on ps3bodega:

http://pleasantfiction.ipower.com/ps3li ... haver.html

Changelog by Hans de Goede (2008-10-19):

- Use ppc cpu emulator even when running on ppc, as using the native cpu
requires a private implementation of pthreads from:
src/Unix/Linux/sheepthreads.c
which depends on glibc pthread internals which are no longer exposed by
glibc and quite possibly changed

Without using the PPC cpu emulator I could never get Mac OS to boot.

[ppietro]

It was all I could think about for a while, trying to run Mac OS via Sheepshaver without having to use the processor emulator. I did eventually get a Mac OS up and running on it on the PS3, but it had to use PPC emulation even while running on PPC.

There are some notes in the RPM package for it on ps3bodega:

http://pleasantfiction.ipower.com/ps3li ... haver.html

Changelog by Hans de Goede (2008-10-19):

- Use ppc cpu emulator even when running on ppc, as using the native cpu
requires a private implementation of pthreads from:
src/Unix/Linux/sheepthreads.c
which depends on glibc pthread internals which are no longer exposed by
glibc and quite possibly changed

Without using the PPC cpu emulator I could never get Mac OS to boot.

So - if I understand that correctly, sheepthreads.c uses a special "private" implementation of pthreads which is derived from a glibc thread method that doesn't exist anymore. So - it's not so much that you need a PPC emulator as that you need to be able to run an ancient version of glibc. You load the PPC emulator so that you can load an ancient glibc.

That sure seems like something that could be fixed. However - pthreads were always a big mystery to me, so I understand the reticence to touch that kind of code.

Cheers,
Paul