OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

YDL running on the Sony Playstation 3

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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 06 Apr 2010, 20:15

CoBrA2168 wrote:Instead of using the DNS method, why not just use the Proxy server method? (LG5 Tool)


For folks without spare computers - or who don't want to run another computer while they're running their PS3 - it's easier to use the DNS method. It works very well for me - and doesn't require me to have another computer powered up, nor is there anything to configure.

You just move your standard DNS server to the secondary and put this DNS server as the primary - and you're done.

Plus - I'm kinda wary of running Proxies that aren't from commercial vendors or established open source projects. How do you know that this proxy tool isn't sending back sensitive information to its creator? ;)

You can raise similar questions about the DNS - but he invites you to verify that it's safe. And - as I mentioned before, it's easy enough to set-up on your own home network if you're comfortable with bind and apache.

Here's his comment:
Bhaal wrote:
what do you think about this ? http://demonhades.org/blog/mathieulthowned-by-u/

Dunno, I can't read it. But Mathieulh had nothing to do with the server, he just helped publicize it after I made it and told some people about it on IRC. Google translate says something about sniffing logins, which I know concerns some people, but some simple tests with the nameserver would show you no domains are being redirected anywhere besides *.ps3.update.playstation.net.

I can guarantee it's not doing anything suspicious. But if you don't trust me, don't use it :)


Cheers,
Paul
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby CoBrA2168 » 06 Apr 2010, 22:03

Well, just like with the DNS switch I'm sure we could verify that the proxy tool is safe too.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 07 Apr 2010, 12:19

CoBrA2168 wrote:Well, just like with the DNS switch I'm sure we could verify that the proxy tool is safe too.


I would strongly urge that you do. Soon-ish rather than later-ish.

Like I said - I'm running the DNS/Apache locally now. So - I know mine is safe.

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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby CoBrA2168 » 07 Apr 2010, 15:31

Guess what - no more workarounds.

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/04/o ... 321oo.html

Check out the latest blog post - Geohot has delivered!
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby Seraphic » 07 Apr 2010, 17:27

CoBrA2168 wrote:Guess what - no more workarounds.

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/04/o ... 321oo.html

Check out the latest blog post - Geohot has delivered!


Beat me to it, but good news none the less. :D
Sony really made things worse a thousand fold by trying to remove OtherOS in the first place.
Now there are dumps of the hypervisor all over the web and even a customer firmware for PS3.

ppietro wrote:
CoBrA2168 wrote:Well, just like with the DNS switch I'm sure we could verify that the proxy tool is safe too.


I would strongly urge that you do. Soon-ish rather than later-ish.

Like I said - I'm running the DNS/Apache locally now. So - I know mine is safe.

Cheers,
Paul


I'm still using the DNS bypass from the Aaron user on that other forum with my DNS as secondary.
Do you plan to make your DNS bypass public for 3.15 users? :wink:
60GB CECHA 3.15 firmware PlayStation 3 with 160GB HDD
Running 10GB OtherOS partition with Yellow Dog Linux 6.2 installed
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby sirgrinalot » 07 Apr 2010, 17:49

CoBrA2168 wrote:Guess what - no more workarounds.

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/04/o ... 321oo.html

Check out the latest blog post - Geohot has delivered!


I noticed in the video that he wasn't online. And considering the only thing he showed us in the past was his "Custom Themes?" post. I am skeptical that he actually did what he is saying. I am going to think he just edited some menu text files and changed 3.15 to say 3.21. Until I see a "3.21" firmware ps3 have the otheros feature AND login to the psn without DNS or Proxy in the same video without editing, I am an unbeliever.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 07 Apr 2010, 19:06

Seraphic wrote:I'm still using the DNS bypass from the Aaron user on that other forum with my DNS as secondary.
Do you plan to make your DNS bypass public for 3.15 users? :wink:


I don't plan on making my DNS server publically available. Bind/named is tricky, and I'm worried about my server's security. I have it limited to my own IP address and set to deny other requests - and I'm still nervous about it.

However - I'm happy to discuss the specifics if folks want to set it up on their own. Warning - it's not for the faint of heart. You have to know your way around bind/named & apache.

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. I basically tell you how to set it up at the end of this post:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=165#p37885
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby dan_f14 » 08 Apr 2010, 12:17

If CFW was made readily available (as Gehot supposedly has CFW installed) how would Sony combat it? Could they detect what firmware we are on? The reason I am posting this is that I believe the PS3 is the one that determines whether it needs an update and not Sony. Doesn't the PS3 just request a download of a text file with the latest fw version and then the PS3 decides if it has the latest one or not? Therefore logic would suggest that no firmware information must be passed to Sony as it would render the download of the text file redundant as Sony would be able to identify if the firmware needs updating and then just update it that way. Proof of this could also be in the DNS workaround. If Sony could tell what firmware we are on then the DNS workaround shouldn't be able to work as they could see we were on an older fw and deny PSN access etc. I could be wrong on all of that but thats how I understand it to work. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope I'm not overstepping the mark talking about CFW its just that I would like to be aware of the options available. The DNS workaround is the best choice for now. However when Sony actually release FW that improves features rather than removes them then the DNS workaround becomes more of a choice than a solution. Thats where CFW would become a more attractive option. Running CFW may be illegal I am not sure on that. I think it could only become illegal if it was used to facilitate an illegal activity such as running pirated games. However if it could be proved that it was only used to enable and still use an advertised feature (at time of purchase) and it was the only viable method available (short of sacrificing game play which is the primary function of the ps3!) to do so then the area becomes much more grey.

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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby billb » 10 Apr 2010, 05:59

PS3 60GB [CECHA01], FW 3.15, YDL 6.2, Samsung T260HD @ 1920x1200
Powermac G4 1.25 GHz x2, 2 GB RAM, YDL 6.2
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby Tipper » 10 Apr 2010, 08:13

Hello.I would encourage everyone doing business with European citizens, or citizens located in Europe, to lodge a formal complaint with the European Community Competition Authority under Articles 81 and 82 of the EC Treaty if they are upset about Sony's move with firmware version 3.21.

The competition authority can be found at the link address below. I have already complained as a private individual. The more people who complain the more likely that they will investigate. Fixstars as a company affected by this move can also launch a formal complaint. It is not too hard to do, and these guys have a good track record against the real big boys (Nintendo, Microsoft, Intel).

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/contact ... _mail.html

Both Article 82 and the Chapter II prohibition provide, in similar terms, that conduct may constitute an abuse if it consists of:
(a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions
(b) limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of consumers
(c) applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage
(d) making the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of the contracts.4

Consumers can also complain to their local consumer protection authorities e.g. The Office of Fair Trading quoting Directive 1999/44/EC.

“The goods must:

• comply with the description given by the seller and posses the same qualities and characteristics as other similar goods
• be fit for the purpose which the consumer requires them and which was made known to the seller at the time of purchase.”

The key here being that "at the time of purchase" Linux was available to the consumer, and now it is only available by a consumer choosing to disable other features that were also available at the time of purchase.

In short, it could do A & B when it was sold, whilst now it can only do A or B.

Here's my complaint that I sent to comp-market-information@ec.europa.eu
------

Sony Computer Entertainment (Sony) produce an entertainment system that is trade marked as “Playstation 3” or “PS3.”

When PS3 was launched, Sony stated that users could use their PS3 to
1) play offline PS3 games
2) be backwards compatible for playing PS/2 games
3) be granted free access to the Playstation Network to play games online
4) play media such as Blue-Ray discs
5) install a second operating system (“OtherOS”), such as Linux, to allow the user to customize the product further

In the meantime Sony released the so called “slim” version of PS3 hardware which did not support backwards compatibility and the second operating system. At this point the original version of hardware became known as the “fat” version. The “thin” version was much cheaper at introduction, but sales of the “fat” version continued in parallel for some time. Many people paid a premium for the “fat” version because of the additional features i.e. second operating system and backwards compatibility with PS2 games.

Sony have now release new firmware for all PS3 versions under the guise of a regular firmware update (version 3.21) as of April 1st (a rather unfortunate choice of date.) This update forces users of the original “fat” PS3 to choose between removing the ability to install a second operating system, or to continue to enjoy free Playstation Network access.

see http://www.playstation.com/ps3-openplatform/manual.html (which by the way added the comment about 3.21 only after it was released)
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/ ... 21-update/

Sony has stated that it will not support two different release streams in the future (one for online access to the Playstation Network, and one for installation of a second operating system). So users who choose -to continue to be able to install the second operating system will not only lose access to the Playstation Network immediately; but will, over time, almost certainly lose the ability to play Blue-Ray discs and offline games, as these often include encryption and other software features that require future firmware updates. These firmware updates will not be available for users who choose the option of being able to continue installing a second operating system.

I consider this to be unacceptable behaviour as the product is clearly worth less after this firmware update.

You may therefore ask why I am complaining to the anti competition authority?

You may say that this is a matter for consumer protection due to product misrepresentation?

Well maybe it is that too.

EC Directive 1999/44/EC states

“The goods must:

• comply with the description given by the seller and posses the same qualities and characteristics as other similar goods
• be fit for the purpose which the consumer requires them and which was made known to the seller at the time of purchase.”.

The key here being that "at the time of purchase" Linux was available to the consumer, and now it is only available by a consumer choosing to disable other features that were also available at the time of purchase.

In short, it could do A & B when it was sold, whilst now it can only do A or B.

You may also say “so what, you can run Linux on any PC.”

But the PS3 was used by many companies and students as cheap access to massively parallel computing based on the cell processor technology installed in the Playstation. No other system offered such cost effective access to this sort of computing. Sony sold the Playstation hardware cell processors much cheaper than anything else on the market, and the hardware was being sold at a loss for an extended period (see http://www.vg247.com/2010/02/06/loss-pe ... -says-wsj/ ). The hardware was being cross subsidised by game sales and licence fees.

There are many manufacturers other than Sony, and many individuals, who have specifically invested development effort in installing and running Linux on this specialized hardware that Sony have sold. An example of two Linux releases and commercial ventures that may be harmed by this are PSUbuntu (Canonical), and Yellow Dog Linux (Fixstars) who also offered commercial versions. Playstation hardware was even bought in bulk by the US government for serious research e.g. cracking passwords of paedophiles. There are also competing companies who produce hardware for cell based systems that support Linux (but sell at their hardware much higher price level and have much lower volumes, meaning Sony have a dominant position in this niche)

See
http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/ydel/
http://psubuntu.com/installation-instructions/
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/services
http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/212 ... passwords/

It isn't just that Sony sold this hardware and people broke into it like on the Xbox. No, Sony sold this hardware specifically with a documented feature in their operating system to allow users and competing companies to install their own choice of 2nd operating system. The existence of this feature was also used as a unique selling point during their advertising campaign. They have now effectively remotely removed that ability with very little or no notice on existing hardware installed in peoples private premises. Typically an end of sales end of support announcement would be made years in advance to give companies and individuals plenty of time to adapt to a new system. Sony announced this firmware change on 28th March 2010 and rolled out the update on 1st April 2010. Even though in August 2009 a senior executive of Sony assured owners of “fat” PS3 versions that they would not remove this feature via future firmware updates.

See http://manuals.playstation.net/document ... stall.html
http://www.taranfx.com/why-no-linux-ins ... a-solution

When the 3.21 firmware update is installed it does not remove the reserved Linux partition, it simply denies users access to it. Users permanently lose access to at least 10Gb of hard disk and the only way to recover that is to reformat the whole disk and start again. Users also lose all of their data stored in this partition unless they have made a back up, but that Linux back up may itself be useless....

Removal of the feature is permanent on many Playstation systems. The firmware is not stored on the hard disk of the original 60Gb PS3 (the version I own): it is stored in flash memory. The back up feature does not cover the firmware at all: you can only back up and restore the contents of the disk. So once flashed, there is no obvious way back to the version (3.1.15) that did support this OtherOS feature. Sony no longer distributes 3.15, so any copies that may still be floating around on the net are of dubious quality. I fear that many consumers will install this update without realising the consequences of their actions, whether they chose to maintain access to the feature or not. That also probably also means that the “fat” systems that have been flashed to 3.21. can no longer be resold to companies or individuals who would make a different choice from the original owner i.e. to install a second operating system.

Article 82 and the Chapter II prohibition provide, in similar terms, that conduct may constitute an abuse if it consists of:
(a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions
(b) limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of consumers
(c) applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage
(d) making the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of the contracts.4

Sony are denying companies and individuals access to hardware that they have rightly paid for and could expect to enjoy for many years, and instead effectively forced them to run the Sony operating system exclusively on hardware that was sold below manufacturing cost.

I think the behaviour that I have observed breaks both a) (selling below manufacturing costs) and b) (limiting markets to the prejudice of consumers) and that this therefore constitutes anti competitive behaviour and abuse of a dominant position.

Sony have sold 33 million Playstations, many of them to European consumers and companies.

I personally find this disgraceful behaviour from a major manufacturer and have written to Sony. They have noted my views but have not commented.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby NuxIT » 10 Apr 2010, 18:24

Holy smokes THIS SUCKS!! I was loving 6.2 after spending the last month or two configuring it and dialing it in. This is a huge slap in the face from Sony. Wow, just Wow!.. :roll:
Back on the attack after using 5.0.2. Ready to get this 6.2 up and running!
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 10 Apr 2010, 18:56

NuxIT wrote:Holy smokes THIS SUCKS!! I was loving 6.2 after spending the last month or two configuring it and dialing it in. This is a huge slap in the face from Sony. Wow, just Wow!.. :roll:


I don't know if you've read through all of this thread or not, but this post is illuminating:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=90#p37713

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby Nightmare » 10 Apr 2010, 19:35

If you use a router with DD-WRT firmware or with other open-source firmware you can change your DNS server settings there to prevent PS3 updates:
http://rvlution.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=756#p756
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby Stealth_Musoka » 11 Apr 2010, 08:54

Hello everyone, I wish this was not my first post here, but nice to know there are others out there who are trying to use this legitimately like myself. I took my first dive into Linux 1.5 years ago. I started on Xubuntu at the recommendations of a friend using it on PC, and switched over to YDL when the VRAM memory swap was introduced. This has all been an incredible learning experience for me getting this all set up. I have come onto these boards to read the threads and get advice on how to set up much of what was done, and my thanks to all those people who contribute and help out, most of all the one name I have noticed more than once is BillB. Thanks guys.

I am technical, but nowhere near as technical as most of you here. Linux has been a real learning curve for me. I thought I was pretty computer efficient as I am the one usually helping people get their PCs up and running when they have problems, but YDL is definitely more intensive. I am enjoying it, though I struggle to understand what it exactly is I am doing much of the time, however piece by piece my knowledge expands. This has been a one day a month kind of project so though I have a decent amount of time invested, but I am still a noob at understanding Linux on the whole.

I was wondering if people here are willing to not give this up yet? Some people are talking about Egohot and his supposed CFW, even if he does have it, don't you guys think it would be better for us to be legitimately allowed to use things the way we were supposed to? I'm sorry Sony may have overreacted, but I don't want this guys FW on my machine, and even more-so, I really don't want to risk my console being banned online for using a modified FW. There is a class action lawsuit being readied to be filed shortly, and I am honestly wondering how many people who know what they are doing, and are doing this for the right reasons will step up and challenge Sony? I have been in contact with the attorneys this week, and I really want to join them and possibly help represent the suit, but I just really wish there were more people who were smart and understood what has happened would stand up with me. I'm sorry if I'm not supposed to do this, but I have a twitter account, I don't really twitter, but I am trying to use it as a means of communicating with people interested in fighting this. You can find me by the same name I use here, Stealth_Musoka, I will be broadcasting info on the details of the CAL, or at the least I can direct you to the attorneys involved, things are going to be filed pretty quickly I think.

I honestly love(d?) Sony, and the PlayStation brand, I never wanted to fight them, but this is just wrong, I don't care how few of us there are. I use my console for computing, gaming, online play, music, movies, and browsing, and these were all features I paid for. I would honestly be happy if they said those of us on 3.15 can come back to using PSN, and be able to play all future blu-rays and PS3 games even if that means they have to make game patches for 3.15 users. They could get the last people holding out on principal or on the hopes of the console being cracked to give up the OS willingly by giving them some of the features customers are screaming for on the PlayStation Share Blog. The majority of the customer base has already given up the feature, get those on principal or those who thought they would be pirating games in a week or two to give up the OS for new features. Then I think its time for Sony to reach out to the rest of us and offer a compromise for those of us. Personally I don't care if I can't upgrade and get cross game chat or backwards compatibility, or use the PS Move, as long as I can access what lured me to buy the product. Ability to run Linux, ability to play PS3 format games, movies, music, blu-ray, media-serve, internet, and ability to play online games with friends on the PSN and shot at the PSN store. I don't see the logic behind telling us that we can no longer pay for new games at retail or in the PSN store as a deterrent to piracy. It seems like that is going to lead to more frustrated people who are going to look for ways to do it without paying. I don't want to see the unit pirated to hell either but this isn't the best way, and I am hoping there are more people who actually know what they are talking about who will stand up as well.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby sok_linux » 11 Apr 2010, 15:34

I was looking for some one to put all the info together for a formal complaint. Cheers tipper
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