OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 04 Apr 2010, 17:28

sirgrinalot wrote:I thought this article was very interesting.

http://www.ironstarmovement.com/profile ... update-321

Meowmmm writes; “Update 3.21 which Sony described as a security update
and removes installing another OS is a lie. Apparently Sony had
claimed that the 8th SPE was not used to increase production yields,
when in fact it was reserved for running the "Other OS". Update 3.21
by Sony is in fact an advanced strike by Sony to hide the fact that
the 8th SPE is needed to process the "Move Controller/s" without
sacrificing existing graphics and game play.


I thought we had access to all the spe's?


I've never heard anything like that statement before. Here's the truth - at least as far as I know it.

The Cell has 8 SPEs, but as used in the Playstation 3, only 7 are enabled. The 8th is locked out in silicon. This makes for cheaper chips, since you only have to verify that 7 work. Also your chip yields are higher since there's a good chance that 7 work as opposed to all 8 working. The 8th may or may not be working - but since it's locked out, you can't know.

From there, the OtherOS reserves 1 SPE for the key vault feature - this is the SPE running in isolation that provides hardware encryption. This leaves 6 SPEs for general use. We can see these SPEs as the small Fixstars logos at boot-time. (Or mini-penguins if you're running older builds of YDL).

That's what I know. The blog quoted is either the best scoop of all time, or totally unfounded speculation.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ohm » 04 Apr 2010, 22:18

Meowmmm writes; “Update 3.21 which Sony described as a security update
and removes installing another OS is a lie. Apparently Sony had
claimed that the 8th SPE was not used to increase production yields,
when in fact it was reserved for running the "Other OS". Update 3.21
by Sony is in fact an advanced strike by Sony to hide the fact that
the 8th SPE is needed to process the "Move Controller/s" without
sacrificing existing graphics and game play.


Oh, that could be. They are certainly running out of compute power in the games and they are going to need more soon. Still, it should be that the the SPE's should be re-targetable across boots. I wonder if they are having trouble getting a PS4 designed, such actions usually are evidence of that. Nvidia only releases a multi-chip cards when ATI knocks them off their cat-bird-perch.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ohm » 04 Apr 2010, 22:29

alastor wrote:
ohm wrote:for better or worse x86 is in fact the standard and will be the least expensive CPU for some time to come.

Most important phrase - for some time to come - because ARM will beat x86 ( and AMD ) sooner or later. This will also help development of linux since windows runs on x86 arch. Why ? Power management is a way better on ARM then on Intel.


A time and a season for all things. I would prefer that the architectures move towards MIPS or Itanium. Intel is a pretty scrappy bunch (and OBTW, Linux friendly) and won't yield the crown easily. THere is really no competition int he the server space. But ARM is mainly a low power platform which levels the playing field. But ARM has the same problem that everyone else has - no silicon fabs. If Nvidia had access to the silicon fabrication that Intel does, Fermi would have be out already. Until there is a foundry that can compete with Intel fabs, Intel will remain dominant. Of course, the existence of Atom is clear evidence that Intel is extremely interested in Low Power which is really where the action is going to be. IMO.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby CoBrA2168 » 05 Apr 2010, 05:51

ppietro wrote:
sirgrinalot wrote:I thought this article was very interesting.

http://www.ironstarmovement.com/profile ... update-321

Meowmmm writes; “Update 3.21 which Sony described as a security update
and removes installing another OS is a lie. Apparently Sony had
claimed that the 8th SPE was not used to increase production yields,
when in fact it was reserved for running the "Other OS". Update 3.21
by Sony is in fact an advanced strike by Sony to hide the fact that
the 8th SPE is needed to process the "Move Controller/s" without
sacrificing existing graphics and game play.


I thought we had access to all the spe's?


I've never heard anything like that statement before. Here's the truth - at least as far as I know it.

The Cell has 8 SPEs, but as used in the Playstation 3, only 7 are enabled. The 8th is locked out in silicon. This makes for cheaper chips, since you only have to verify that 7 work. Also your chip yields are higher since there's a good chance that 7 work as opposed to all 8 working. The 8th may or may not be working - but since it's locked out, you can't know.

From there, the OtherOS reserves 1 SPE for the key vault feature - this is the SPE running in isolation that provides hardware encryption. This leaves 6 SPEs for general use. We can see these SPEs as the small Fixstars logos at boot-time. (Or mini-penguins if you're running older builds of YDL).

That's what I know. The blog quoted is either the best scoop of all time, or totally unfounded speculation.

Cheers,
Paul

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but I have YDL 6.2 and I also have the 6 mini-penguins on startup. I thought that was the latest version?

Anyway, back on topic. I doubt it was removed for "space" or "CPU" reasons. It is only obvious that Geohot's hack is the reason OtherOS was removed. But I don't know if this was necessarily a bad thing. I mean, this will most definitely be the spark the homebrew/hacker community needed for the PS3.

Yeah it sucks for us Linux users who also like the PSN. But, if we're patient, we might be able to get it back, along with homebrew apps in the XMB.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby sirgrinalot » 05 Apr 2010, 06:10

ppietro wrote:
I've never heard anything like that statement before. Here's the truth - at least as far as I know it.

The Cell has 8 SPEs, but as used in the Playstation 3, only 7 are enabled. The 8th is locked out in silicon. This makes for cheaper chips, since you only have to verify that 7 work. Also your chip yields are higher since there's a good chance that 7 work as opposed to all 8 working. The 8th may or may not be working - but since it's locked out, you can't know.

From there, the OtherOS reserves 1 SPE for the key vault feature - this is the SPE running in isolation that provides hardware encryption. This leaves 6 SPEs for general use. We can see these SPEs as the small Fixstars logos at boot-time. (Or mini-penguins if you're running older builds of YDL).

That's what I know. The blog quoted is either the best scoop of all time, or totally unfounded speculation.

Cheers,
Paul


The more I think about it, that guy didn't make sense. Because the 8th one is locked out at the factory.

But do you remember sony's statement as to why they removed otheros from the PS3 slim? It went something like this...

"In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price."

Correct me on this if I am wrong, wasn't the 7th SPE dedicated to the "hypervisor"?

If that is true then sony had 3 reasons to remove OtherOs support from fat PS3's they are as follows:

1.) Prevent as many people as possible from being able to execute an exploit.

2.) Save money by not having to update the hypervisor at every firmware update.

3.) Open up the 7th SPE for the gameos to use, Because the need of a "hypervisor" is gone after the otheros is removed.

The exact function of the hypervisor is unclear to me, all my past knowledge tells me it was only for otheros because there is currently no exploits to run unsigned code on the gameos, therefore the hyperviser is not needed. But correct me if I'm wrong.


Also unrelated to hypervisor stuff, the other day I said that I had experienced the annoying "text box" while using a keyboard for the gameos web browser on a hdtv. Well by accident I found out that while your ps3 is set to 1280x720 the text box will appear, but when your resolution is set to 1080i or 1080p you can type directly onto a webpage. I thought 720p was considered "HD" but I guess not. I use 720 because it makes the text bigger and easier to read from a distance on a 32' screen. But my PS3 froze today while browsing the web in the gameos (which happens about 5 times a day) and I walked up to it and held down the power button like I normally do. When I came back the video settings had reset, making me do the automatic setting of 1080i and then the discovery ocurred.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 05 Apr 2010, 07:13

sirgrinalot wrote:Correct me on this if I am wrong, wasn't the 7th SPE dedicated to the "hypervisor"?


Okay folks - let me explain a little about the 7th SPE.

The 7th SPE is always reserved for the system - regardless if the OtherOS or GameOS is running. It's my understanding that even a regular game - like Uncharted 2 for example - only has 6 SPEs available. The reason is that the system always reserves one SPE for security.

I explain the security model here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4015&p=36834#p36834

From this, it appears that the hypervisor runs on the PPE. And - yes - games run under a hypervisor as well. If implemented correctly, hypervisors do not necessarily mean speed penalty. They will stay out of the way - unless they're invoked during an I/O call.

So - the SPE count doesn't have any affect on the hypervisor. Removing the OtherOS does not free up an SPE. The hypervisor is still there - in GameOS or OtherOS.

That's my understanding anyway. Does that help any?

Cheers,
Paul

Footnote:

Martin Linklater. "Optimizing Cell Core". Game Developer Magazine, April 2007: pp. 15–18. "To increase fabrication yields, Sony ships PlayStation 3 Cell processors with only seven working SPEs. And from those seven, one SPE will be used by the operating system for various tasks, This leaves six SPEs and 1 PPE for game programmer to use."
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby sirgrinalot » 05 Apr 2010, 07:36

Thanks ppeitro, you explanation makes more sense and clears up the mud for me.

If my new understanding is correct, then sony is saving money by not having to update the application that runs under the 7th SPE hypervisor when running otheros. In addition to any other reasons beneficial to sony.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 05 Apr 2010, 07:39

sirgrinalot wrote:Thanks ppeitro, you explanation makes more sense and clears up the mud for me.

If my new understanding is correct, then sony is saving money by not having to update the application that runs under the 7th SPE hypervisor when running otheros. In addition to any other reasons beneficial to sony.


Sorry - updated my previous post quite a bit. I was initially mistaken in stating that the Hypervisor runs on an SPE - it runs on the PPE. I forgot about the info that Geohot posted about it. Mea culpa. :D

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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby Legendary_Agent » 05 Apr 2010, 08:01

Great :D i supose ppietros source was right... i still cant believe how immoral can Sony be with such cheap move, that hack didnt hack anything in the first place, it doesnt let you play pirated games, its not sony firmware based and never will be...
So we are left with no Internet connection, no right to play newer games, play blu ray movies and so on because someone decided to kill OtherOS because of a hack that doesnt do ANYTHING of value.
Now i wish i would have a way to explain my teachers why i am presenting a dead feature...

im extremelly disapointed with Sony.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby sirgrinalot » 05 Apr 2010, 08:09

ppietro wrote:
sirgrinalot wrote:Thanks ppeitro, you explanation makes more sense and clears up the mud for me.

If my new understanding is correct, then sony is saving money by not having to update the application that runs under the 7th SPE hypervisor when running otheros. In addition to any other reasons beneficial to sony.


Sorry - updated my previous post quite a bit. I was initially mistaken in stating that the Hypervisor runs on an SPE - it runs on the PPE. I forgot about the info that Geohot posted about it. Mea culpa. :D

Cheers,
Paul


No problem, at first it turned my crystal clear view back into mud, but after some more reading I think I get it.

The actual hypervisor application is running on the PPE, and when it needs to run secure code for encrypting/decrypting it executes that code on the 7th SPE. If you shut down the application on the PPE the 7th SPE is essentially shut down as well because it has nothing to do. It is weird actually, because the PPE seems like a stick of ram holding the application for the SPEs, but considering the system already has ram the PPE is the "traffic light" between system ram and the SPEs.

Now it seems sony's decison was very simple. They noticed the exploit and set about trying to fix it. Then they discovered it was going to cost too much to fix the hypervisor application on the otheros side of the system, or it was going to be impossible to fix. So the cheapest safest alternative was to remove other os altogether.
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 05 Apr 2010, 09:21

Legendary_Agent wrote:Great :D i supose ppietros source was right... i still cant believe how immoral can Sony be with such cheap move, that hack didnt hack anything in the first place, it doesnt let you play pirated games, its not sony firmware based and never will be...
So we are left with no Internet connection, no right to play newer games, play blu ray movies and so on because someone decided to kill OtherOS because of a hack that doesnt do ANYTHING of value.
Now i wish i would have a way to explain my teachers why i am presenting a dead feature...

im extremelly disapointed with Sony.


Many people are upset by this. There is some legal action underway. While this is all being worked out....

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=90#p37713

if you haven't seen this already.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 05 Apr 2010, 09:24

sirgrinalot wrote:Now it seems sony's decison was very simple. They noticed the exploit and set about trying to fix it. Then they discovered it was going to cost too much to fix the hypervisor application on the otheros side of the system, or it was going to be impossible to fix. So the cheapest safest alternative was to remove other os altogether.


That's basically my take on it. There may be no one left at Sony who understands how the OtherOS works - hence the removal from the slim due to the new hardware configuration, and the removal from the phat due to the inability to patch the exploit.

Cheers,
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby Legendary_Agent » 05 Apr 2010, 09:47

ppietro wrote:
Legendary_Agent wrote:Great :D i supose ppietros source was right... i still cant believe how immoral can Sony be with such cheap move, that hack didnt hack anything in the first place, it doesnt let you play pirated games, its not sony firmware based and never will be...
So we are left with no Internet connection, no right to play newer games, play blu ray movies and so on because someone decided to kill OtherOS because of a hack that doesnt do ANYTHING of value.
Now i wish i would have a way to explain my teachers why i am presenting a dead feature...

im extremelly disapointed with Sony.


Many people are upset by this. There is some legal action underway. While this is all being worked out....

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=90#p37713

if you haven't seen this already.

Cheers,
Paul


thanks a tons i had no clue you could costumize the ip of the updating service, since this might be called hack, can sony ban me for having such workaround in my ps3? i do not want my mac adress banned lol as for ip well im using a dynamic system so no biggie :P
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby ppietro » 05 Apr 2010, 09:55

Legendary_Agent wrote:thanks a tons i had no clue you could costumize the ip of the updating service, since this might be called hack, can sony ban me for having such workaround in my ps3? i do not want my mac adress banned lol as for ip well im using a dynamic system so no biggie :P


So - IANAL - I am not a lawyer - but....

This isn't really a hack. What this does, simply, is tell your PS3 that you don't need updating.

The way it works is that your PS3 determines if it needs an update, not PSN. Weird huh? The only thing keeping you from logging into the PSN is your PS3 itself - not the PSN. (Well - assuming you have the right credentials, etc. We're talking legal access here.)

So - your PS3 asks for a text file to see if it needs to update. What this does is give you a text file that says you're fine. Then, your PS3 continues its standard login - nothing is hacked at all.

They do suggest that you put your normal DNS server as the secondary to help the load on this guy's DNS server. But - he's indicated that he's in no hurry to take it down, and he figures he can take the load on the server.

So - as long as you have a valid PSN account, you're doing a valid PSN login. No hacking involved.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: OtherOS removed in Firmware update 3.21

Postby keefy » 05 Apr 2010, 10:29

I heard that using the DNS method it can be used to aquire your credit card details when buying stuff from the store, is this true?
I find it hard o believe.
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