A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

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A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 19 Feb 2010, 03:16

Hi everyone,

I don't know if you poke around TestTube much - http://www.youtube.com/testtube - but they've rolled out experimental support for HTML5 playback of videos. This is cool because it bypasses the necessity for Adobe Flash.

If you have Google Chrome, or are using Safari on the Mac, you can try it out:
http://www.youtube.com/html5

What you'll want to do is click on the "Join the HTML5 beta" link, then surf to a video without ads. If it's working, you should see an HTML5 logo, then playback of your video. When you're done checking it out, go back to http://www.youtube.com/html5 and click "Leave the HTML5 beta" link.

Now - here's the interesting part for us. (And, the boo hiss part)

Firefox 3.5 and later versions include HTML5 video playback support. This might make compiling Firefox 3.5/3.6 a higher priority for us. However - there's a problem here.

They only have support for Ogg Theora format video, not H.264. :(

And - YouTube only uses H.264 & FLV - not Ogg Theora. :(

There's a good explanation of their reasoning here:
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/arch ... dom_a.html

Basically, it boils down to the old "Completely open source browser" argument - just like the Fedora & Debian philosophies. I'm fine with that - there's a certain intellectual purity about that kind of viewpoint that's kind of appealing.

However - this stood out:

Mozilla should pick up and use H.264 codecs that are already installed on the user's system.

I've previously written about a variety of reasons this would be a bad idea, especially on Windows. Really there are two main issues:

1. Most users with Windows Vista and earlier do not have an H.264 codec installed. So for the majority of our users, this doesn't solve any problem.

2. It pushes the software freedom issues from the browser (where we have leverage to possibly change the codec situation) to the platform (where there is no such leverage). You still can't have a completely free software Web client stack.

But I could just download gst-plugins-ugly and I'd be OK.

That's a selfish attitude. Everyone should be able to browse the Web with a free software stack without having to jump through arcane hoops to download and install software (whose use is legally questionable).


Thus - the "boo hiss" part. We're a much smaller market than x86 Linux - but we have no other alternative. They're relying on the fact that if Firefox can't use HTML5 due to H.264, they can fall back to Adobe Flash plugin - then somehow convince YouTube to add Ogg Theora support if they want to get rid of Flash once and for all.

Instead, since YouTube is owned by Google, and Chrome supports HTML5 H.264, nothing will change at all except that Firefox users won't have this option. And, since the support is built into the browser and not a plugin or codec, they won't be able to add the option.

Really short sighted on Firefox's part, IMHO. Epic FAIL.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby roshi » 19 Feb 2010, 03:30

we've always had to work harder and smarter for our supper. as a former unix OS X user, i understand that not everything is made for the masses. youtube is for the masses. let the masses enjoy streaming video. we will discover a way around it. we will have a streaming resource, soon (crosses fingers). for now - just use a browser plugin to download the video or use vlc to play it. this is no large, coming from a guy with dial up. :lol: anywho - - our day will come - it just isn't today!

the majority of my hard drive is AVI video. the other 3/8 is digital audio. I STILL USE LINUX

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--those who complain rarely read. those who read rarely complain.
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 19 Feb 2010, 03:35

roshi wrote: as a former unix OS X user, i understand that not everything is made for the masses.


The sad part is that the OS X is better than Windows right now for this YouTube playback engine.

Google Chrome has HTML5 H.264 support on both platforms, but only the OS X builds of Safari include it. Safari for Windows includes HTML5, but I can't get the H.264 to work. :(

Oh yeah - if you include the Chrome Frame for Windows, then IE has it too. (But - that's kind of cheating. :))

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby roshi » 19 Feb 2010, 03:38

i have a window$ box at work running safari - - i will try it out and let you know my experiences. I don't really care too much for youtube but i can suffer through it. the FLV player on the window$ box works great for low quality images - the high quality FLV vids aren't that great. i prefer avi format.

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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 19 Feb 2010, 10:12

Oh - and if you'd like a test video, this one works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDAL-juGlfI

Remember - you'll have to be part of the beta to see it in HTML5, otherwise, it's just a regular Flash video.

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Paul
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 20 Feb 2010, 00:11

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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby CronoCloud » 20 Feb 2010, 02:11

There have been discussions of the Firefox 3.5+ issue with supporting h.264 in the video tag on Slashdot.

Personally I think they should just give in and use whatever h.264 support is installed on the system, just like Stallman should just stop complaining that we don't use the term GNU/Linux all the time. IMHO practicality trumps ideological FOSS purity.

Or to put it succinctly, supporting only Ogg Theora in the video tag makes having such support almost useless because no one uses Ogg Theora. And they aren't going to start either. h.264 is the reality of web video

I'm also surprised that they say Windows users don't have h.264 support installed. I certainly did, even in WinXP five years ago.

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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 20 Feb 2010, 03:20

CronoCloud wrote:I'm also surprised that they say Windows users don't have h.264 support installed. I certainly did, even in WinXP five years ago.


I think only a couple of my computers can handle h.264 in Windows Media Player, via DirectShow codecs. However - if the Firefox team is worried about that, they could always pick it up from QuickTime. That's had h.264 support for quite a while now, and is automatically loaded when you install iTunes.

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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 11 Jan 2011, 22:34

An update to this. On the Chromium developer's blog, they've announced that they're going to discontinue h.264 support in the Google Chrome browser.

http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-v ... hrome.html

Their quote:

"We expect even more rapid innovation in the web media platform in the coming year and are focusing our investments in those technologies that are developed and licensed based on open web principles. To that end, we are changing Chrome’s HTML5 <video> support to make it consistent with the codecs already supported by the open Chromium project. Specifically, we are supporting the WebM (VP8) and Theora video codecs, and will consider adding support for other high-quality open codecs in the future. Though H.264 plays an important role in video, as our goal is to enable open innovation, support for the codec will be removed and our resources directed towards completely open codec technologies."

This is pretty close to the statement Firefox released at the start of this thread.

The good news is that YouTube, since it's part of Google, is abandoning h.264 as well. They're now pushing the WebM (VP8) codec, since Google bought the company. This might be a future solution for us, since Firefox is introducing WebM support as well. (I'm not sure when - it might not be until Firefox 4 - but they're planning on it.)

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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby pwall » 12 Jan 2011, 17:33

Hi Paul

ppietro wrote:This is pretty close to the statement Firefox released at the start of this thread.

The good news is that YouTube, since it's part of Google, is abandoning h.264 as well. They're now pushing the WebM (VP8) codec, since Google bought the company. This might be a future solution for us, since Firefox is introducing WebM support as well. (I'm not sure when - it might not be until Firefox 4 - but they're planning on it


WebM support is in Firefox 4. I have been running Firefox 4 since beta 1 on YDL full time so I'm converted to "tabs on top" :D . I'm on beta 8 at the moment and WebM YouTube videos are working flawlessly.

Here is my mozconfig for Firefox 4. Firefox 4 beta 7 and above should build without difficulty. Previous betas contained a linux/ppc specific bug that needed a small workaround.
Code: Select all
. $topsrcdir/browser/config/mozconfig
mk_add_options MOZ_OBJDIR=@TOPSRCDIR@/objdir-ff-release
mk_add_options MOZ_CO_PROJECT=browser
mk_add_options MOZ_MAKE_FLAGS="-j3"
ac_add_options --without-system-nspr
ac_add_options --with-system-jpeg
ac_add_options --with-system-zlib
ac_add_options --with-system-bz2
ac_add_options --disable-system-hunspell
ac_add_options --disable-system-sqlite
ac_add_options --disable-system-cairo
ac_add_options --with-pthreads
ac_add_options --disable-strip
ac_add_options --disable-tests
ac_add_options --disable-mochitest
ac_add_options --disable-installer
ac_add_options --disable-debug
ac_add_options --enable-optimize
ac_add_options --enable-default-toolkit=cairo-gtk2
ac_add_options --enable-pango
ac_add_options --enable-svg
ac_add_options --enable-canvas
ac_add_options --disable-javaxpcom
ac_add_options --disable-crashreporter
ac_add_options --enable-safe-browsing
ac_add_options --enable-extensions=default
ac_add_options --disable-libnotify
ac_add_options --disable-necko-wifi
ac_add_options --disable-ipc
ac_add_options --target=powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu


Screenshot attached of Tron Legacy WebM trailer in YouTube.


Pat
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 19 Jan 2011, 10:37

pwall wrote:Hi Paul

ppietro wrote:This is pretty close to the statement Firefox released at the start of this thread.

The good news is that YouTube, since it's part of Google, is abandoning h.264 as well. They're now pushing the WebM (VP8) codec, since Google bought the company. This might be a future solution for us, since Firefox is introducing WebM support as well. (I'm not sure when - it might not be until Firefox 4 - but they're planning on it


WebM support is in Firefox 4. I have been running Firefox 4 since beta 1 on YDL full time so I'm converted to "tabs on top" :D . I'm on beta 8 at the moment and WebM YouTube videos are working flawlessly.

Here is my mozconfig for Firefox 4. Firefox 4 beta 7 and above should build without difficulty. Previous betas contained a linux/ppc specific bug that needed a small workaround.
Code: Select all
. $topsrcdir/browser/config/mozconfig
mk_add_options MOZ_OBJDIR=@TOPSRCDIR@/objdir-ff-release
mk_add_options MOZ_CO_PROJECT=browser
mk_add_options MOZ_MAKE_FLAGS="-j3"
ac_add_options --without-system-nspr
ac_add_options --with-system-jpeg
ac_add_options --with-system-zlib
ac_add_options --with-system-bz2
ac_add_options --disable-system-hunspell
ac_add_options --disable-system-sqlite
ac_add_options --disable-system-cairo
ac_add_options --with-pthreads
ac_add_options --disable-strip
ac_add_options --disable-tests
ac_add_options --disable-mochitest
ac_add_options --disable-installer
ac_add_options --disable-debug
ac_add_options --enable-optimize
ac_add_options --enable-default-toolkit=cairo-gtk2
ac_add_options --enable-pango
ac_add_options --enable-svg
ac_add_options --enable-canvas
ac_add_options --disable-javaxpcom
ac_add_options --disable-crashreporter
ac_add_options --enable-safe-browsing
ac_add_options --enable-extensions=default
ac_add_options --disable-libnotify
ac_add_options --disable-necko-wifi
ac_add_options --disable-ipc
ac_add_options --target=powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu


Screenshot attached of Tron Legacy WebM trailer in YouTube.


Pat


Quick sanity check - did you have to install a new version of Python? (i.e. greater than 2.4, but less than 3.x?)

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 19 Jan 2011, 11:30

I think I've worked around the Python issue for now.

By the way - for the folks following at home - there's an issue with 4.0b8 & b9 for PowerPC.

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Super Bisquit <superbisq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> /tmp/mozilla-central/js/src/jsinterpinlines.h:589: error: ‘struct JSScript’
> has no member named ‘getJIT’

(Dropping support list, that's for end users really.)

We had a mistake in the b8 (and maybe b9) tree that broke building
without the JIT, it's fixed in tracemonkey and m-c now I believe.

Sorry about that!

Mike


(from http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla. ... 0bf6f55194 )

So - I'm going to try to build 4.0b7. :)

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby pwall » 20 Jan 2011, 00:03

Hi Paul

Quick sanity check - did you have to install a new version of Python? (i.e. greater than 2.4, but less than 3.x?)


Yes, I built python 2.5.5.

By the way - for the folks following at home - there's an issue with 4.0b8 & b9 for PowerPC.


I found no issue, myself, building 4.0b8 - I didn't use any option to enable or disable JIT in the mozconfig file. On the other-hand 4.0b9 won't build at all even if ac_add_options --disable-jit is specified.

The good news is that 4.0b10pre (bleeding edge version) will build again without any reference to JIT so that particluar issue appears to be resolved :-)


Pat
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby ppietro » 20 Jan 2011, 00:08

ppietro wrote:So - I'm going to try to build 4.0b7. :)


So - I got it to build. I had to do two things.

1. I added this to my mozconfig file:
Code: Select all
ac_add_options --disable-jit


2. I edited the configure and configure.in scripts so that Python 2.4 was acceptable. In the script it says that 2.4 should work - they use 2.5 for Windows only. Look for the variable PYTHON_VERSION=2.5 and set it to 2.4

After it built, it couldn't make an bzip2 archive - so I don't have a copy for you to try yet - but I could run the build. I tried HTML5 videos on YouTube.

The good news is that it works - but the bad news is that the playback is pretty choppy.

BTW - if you decide to try this on YouTube, don't forget to switch your YouTube to HTML5 by going here:
http://www.youtube.com/html5

You'll also have to find WebM formatted videos to use. An easy way to do this is to add &webm=1 to any search string in the address bar.

i.e. In YouTube, do a search for puppies. In the resultant string in the address bar, add &webm=1 to the end of the string, and refresh the page.

I'll work on the build packaging issue more tonight.

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: A possible solution to the YouTube issue + boo hiss

Postby pwall » 20 Jan 2011, 15:59

ppietro wrote:2. I edited the configure and configure.in scripts so that Python 2.4 was acceptable. In the script it says that 2.4 should work - they use 2.5 for Windows only. Look for the variable PYTHON_VERSION=2.5 and set it to 2.4

After it built, it couldn't make an bzip2 archive - so I don't have a copy for you to try yet - but I could run the build. I tried HTML5 videos on YouTube.


I have 4.0b8 packaged as a bzip2 archive. It is built against python 2.5.5 but I have checked and it will work with the standard YDL python 2.4 without issue.

If it would help I could upload it to your FTP server?

All the best


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